Breaking changes in VS

[ic2]

Hi Dick,

And returning to Microsoft: I have my doubts they have anyone that understands the entire system.... I have seen a few numbers of the Windows source code (now entirely in GIT as the Linux kernel): more than 300 GB of code with 3,5 millions of code files. The team has about 4.000 people, and every day about 2.500 pull requests.

Wolfgang

That's true of course. But again: why are these 4000 people working on so many unrequested features and changes, instead of trying to make Windows more rock solid and better serviceable when something fails. This is a quote of one of them, at least, it was one of them, and I fully agree with him.

I worked at M$ from 2014-2015.
MS has some very talented programmers. They're not very common, but they exist. The problem is that the entire company is completely and totally focused on developing an absurd number of new features and products, giving them completely unrealistic deadlines, and then shipping software on those deadlines no matter how half-assed or buggy it is.


https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=109375266

Your Office installation issue probably was somewhat related with your Windows installation, so it may be nearly impossible to identify the causes.

This was on my other Pc. Certainly not problem free concerning Windows (I uninstalled the Creators Update a.o. because it broke Microsoft's own Desktop App Converter) but at least it updated. While for Office I had to do a full reinstall in the end.

[NickFriend]

Hi Dick,

I think the most important thing in this is the "IMO".

I wasn't aiming to get involved in a debate about the pros and cons of MS products, just simply leave on the record the opinion of one user who is very content with having switched from VO to work in Visual Studio, as a counterpoint to your litany of problems.

Re. things like commenting and uncommenting code and other simple functions like that, just personalise the VS toolbar and that's that sorted.

All the best

Nick

[ic2]

Hello Nick,

Hi Dick,
I wasn't aiming to get involved in a debate about the pros and cons of MS products
Nick

I know, but it's fun from time to time, isn't it?

Apart from that I admire the ability of people to get used and actually like products which are objectively demonstrable (like more keystrokes, slower operation) more cumbersome to operate

Re. things like commenting and uncommenting code and other simple functions like that, just personalise the VS toolbar and that's that sorted.

I know that too. But it's not possible to assign the same key combination to the 2 different functions so they are used as a toggle like in VO. Simple and elegant solutions like the Ctrl B VO (un)comment toggle certainly do not come from Microsoft. Ever. IMO.

Dick

[Chris]

Hi Dick,

Well, as always I think it all has to do again with personal preferences, what people like and dislike most, how tolerant they are on certain things, how good they are at automatically avoiding "dangerous" situations etc.

As you know, I have very similar feelings with you about most things that MS (and not only MS) creates, actually I have stronger opinions than you on this matter and about even more related things! (although I suspect nobody here will believe me that there's indeed a person with stronger opinions than you on this matter! )

But since I have also met and talked with so many people that are having no problem at all dealing with all sorts of MS related things that personally drive me unimaginably nuts, I realized that for others the issues I am personally seeing are practically non existent for them and I respect that.

I agree it's fun talking about such matters, but IMO only with people that share the same thoughts! For everybody else, it's not much fun I think... So we should soon meet again and share our recent experiences with MS stuff together..and I have plenty myself that want to share with somebody that completely understands me on this subject

Chris

[wriedmann]

Hi Dick,

only a last comment: you have the choice to use the products you like - not everybody has this possibility.
I don't like VS as you don't like it (and as Chris, and I know several persons that think the same), and therefore I use XIDE whenever possible (it is not always possible).

What I don't understand: on the one side you are complaining on Microsoft, and on the other side you are embracing their newest technologies.

Wolfgang

P.S. with this I stop also on this thread

[ic2]

P.S. with this I stop also on this thread

Hello Wolfgang, Chris,

I will stop it too, but after this remark as you have a direct question.

only a last comment: you have the choice to use the products you like - not everybody has this possibility.
I don't like VS as you don't like it (and as Chris, and I know several persons that think the same), and therefore I use XIDE whenever possible (it is not always possible).

What I don't understand: on the one side you are complaining on Microsoft, and on the other side you are embracing their newest technologies.

I think I would basically like Microsoft to use their potential. In general I see their products get more cumbersome to work with, more steps, more clicks etc. with doubtful additions (like collecting data or trying to force the use of their products). Wether or not someone got used to e.g. Visual Studio and like the much larger set of options, one has to admit that objectively VO has a couple of unbeatable advantages in speed and usability. I wish Microsoft would offer the same. The point is: I like the people I met or spoke to at Microsoft. You can simply call them or chat/mail with them. Ever tried that with companies like Google, SAP, Facebook? After conferences like Devshare and listening to presentations of people like Nick or Phil, I decided (a.o.) to use WPF which I think allows me to do more with designing windows (including using sample xaml code) than I could do with VO/Winforms. Similar considerations made me choose for other new technologies. The WPF choice unfortunately ties me to VS as Chris excellent Xide does not support WPF for understandable reasons.

So my daily computer use is a mix of really old software beating the new in many respects (Office 2003, Visual Objects) and the latest technology where I think I benefit. By working that way I keep being reminded how good that latest technology could have been if the makers would have kept/used more efficient things found in older software.

[Chris]

Hi Dick,

Just for the record, personally I absolutely agree again with what you said...
And yes, I like having the last word

Chris

[NickFriend]

In a (probably vain) attempt to have the last word

Just one final comment, directed at the complaints about VS, and in particular about your apparent obsession with how many clicks or steps are needed to accomplish any given task. This might be relevant in a word processor, but programming... seriously!?

I would estimate that perhaps 10% of my programming time is spent actually writing code, the rest is thinking about how to do it best, researching options, choosing which music to play, making another coffee, answering annoying posts by Dick , walking the dog.... actually I probably do my best work while walking the dog, and I'm being serious.

So 1 click or 3, it makes no serious difference because so little time is really spent typing code. Good programming is in the design, not the mechanics of writing the final code.

Nick

[Chris]

Hi Nick,

Argh, so I missed having the last word just by a few seconds?



Chris

[NickFriend]

Yep...